Beginning on 30 April, 2004, Hubert Cecil Madley held the first of 12 telephone conversations with David Williams, during which he talked about how and why he had sexually abused me when I was a child. The last of these conversations took place on 1 November 2004. All of these conversations were tape recorded and the tapes passed to Surrey Police as evidence. Here are some examples of what was said during these conversations.
STATEMENT BY DAVID IRFON WILLIAMS - June 5th 2004
My name is David Irfon Williams of 25 Caithness Drive, Wallasey. The date is June 5th 2004. This is a brief outline of a telephone conversation, which I had with Hugh Madley on 30th April 2004. I spoke to Mr Madley using a code name, which was pre-agreed, of Stephen.
This brief outline is in no specific order. As I remember bits, I will put them down. Basically, Graham had received some letters, so it was decided that I would phone up Hugh Madley to make contact to have a chat with him to help Graham and myself with what was going on.
When I spoke to Hugh, he introduced himself and I introduced myself, and I asked him very specific questions about Graham and the sexual abuse. After a very brief conversation and the introduction, Hugh Madley then went on to explain to me and relay his story about what happened many years ago - 1967, 1968, 1969.
As I say, this is in no specific order. After I asked him about the sexual abuse, he went on to explain. One of the first things I remember about the telephone conversation was how sorry he was for what he did. I asked him what did you mean 'what you did'? He said basically, sexually abused [Graham]. I asked him why he abused Graham. He said he didn't know why, but he had these feelings for Graham. He didn't know how he had these feelings, but he had these feelings for Graham.
He went to tell me that these feelings had, for no reason, appeared. He had never had these feelings before and never had them again. He said that the first time it happened, it was a case of mutual masturbation. I can't remember where he said it was, but he said he masturbated Graham and then Graham had to masturbate him. He went on to tell me several things about himself, where he is living, his garden, what he does in his garden, the vegetables, the flowers, how he gives the majority of it away. He babbles on for some time. He then gets upset; there are some tears. Then he comes out again from being upset straight back into 'he didn't understand what he was doing at the time', and he goes onto another particular thing, saying about a cottage in Wales.
He says to me about being in a tent with Graham. He says that sexual favours were actually swapped. I asked him what he meant by sexual favours. He goes on to tell me about being in sleeping bags and being cold, having to get into the sleeping bags [together] to keep warm, and this is where actual sex took place - sexual intercourse, buggery, what ever you want to call it.
He also goes on to tell me that, with it being so cold, he thinks he remembers going into the cottage, the kitchen in the cottage, and taking the seats out of his car. They were bench seats. Because it was so cold, he goes into the kitchen with Graham. They sleep on the bench seats, and this is where, he says, another sexual intercourse took place. He tried with Graham, and he wanted Graham to try it with him. As I say, this is in no specific order, and I am not expanding on [the details of] what he said, but I'm more than willing to in a court of law.
From what I remember from the conversation, he goes on to tell me about his garden again, feeding the robins, the vegetables. He then goes on to tell me about an uncle he is looking after. This uncle is in a wheel chair, disabled in some way - he doesn't expand on that. He tells me about the death of his father and mother. He tells me about some 'old boys' which he is looking after or helping, because these brothers have been in prison for armed robbery or something like that.
I asked him a couple of questions to get him back onto the subject of Graham. He then goes on tell me about when it all came out, [the day Graham told Fr Maddon, his house master, what had been going on] how he went to see Fr Gaffney [the newly appointed Rector at Chertsey] later that evening. He admitted to Fr Gaffney that he knows Graham has told about the sexual things they have been doing and how it has been affecting him. Fr Gaffney asked him to swear that he would never do this again, which he did. He then tells me that Fr Gaffney told him not approach Graham in any way.
He then tells me that he did in fact approach Graham the very next morning at the bottom of some stairs [these were the stairs that led from the chemistry lab down to the playground] to tell Graham that he had resigned, but they were disturbed by someone coming down the stairs, so he did not actually tell Graham that he had in fact resigned.
I also remember him saying that the sexual abuse went on for quite some time, not only in his houses [the two houses owned by the school in Station Road, Chertsey], but also in Graham's house [50 Hamilton Avenue, Pyrford, Surrey] and away camping. He was very specific in the detail that he gave.
He goes on to tell me that not long afterwards, Fr Gaffney died and at his funeral, the Provincial Rector (the head of the Salesian Order in the UK), Fr George Williams, approached him after the funeral and asked to speak with him. Fr Williams asked him to tell him exactly what had happened. Madley said that he confessed everything that had happened and Fr Williams also asked him to pledge that he would never do this again to any other child. Madley said that he gave him such a promise.
He says that Fr Williams then asked him what he was doing next year. Madley said that he told Fr Williams that he had applied for a couple of posts but had not been successful. Fr Williams then said to him that there was a job going at Salesian College in Battersea, and that if he applied for the post, Fr Williams would not stand in his way.
Madley said that he did apply for the job and he was accepted for the job. On arrival at Battersea, the headmaster at Battersea told him that he was not allowed to be alone with any of the boys on a one-to-one basis outside of the classroom and or teaching activities. He also told him that he would be working in the next laboratory to the deputy headmaster, and that he would be watched at all times, and there would be no after-school activities involving single boys.
He said that the headmaster knew everything that had gone on at Chertsey and they were giving him a second chance. He then goes on to tell me again about his mother and father, his uncle, the gardening etc, during which time he becomes emotional again, saying how sorry he was and that he was not a liar.
He said that when he was interviewed by the police [North Surrey Police] in 2000, he denied the abuse because, at the time, he could not remember a thing about it, and that the only reason he started to remember subsequently in specific detail about what he had done to Graham was that a message posted by Graham on the Battersea page of the Friends Reunited web site, jogged his memory. The message had said that something had happened to Graham at Chertsey, and he knew that it was about him.
He said he printed it off, read it and threw it away. He said he took it out of the bin and read it again at least four times, and this is when his memory started flooding back, about what he had done and how he had felt so sorry and wrong for what he had done. He was getting very upset at this point, crying. He said that this was what had happened, he had not lied to the police, he just could not remember at the time.
He then went on to tell me why he retired early. He said it was due to ill health. He sought medical help through his GP and the NHS. He told me repeatedly how sorry he was about what he had done, and that had he known how it would have affected Graham he would never have done it. However, he still kept going back to what he did and was very explicit in his explanation of how he did it. I won't pass comment there, but it was sick.
He then goes about when he was at Battersea, he was allowed to get involved in the cricket. He then tells me that in 1969, he got a charity cricket team together, which he was in charge of. He took the team back to Chertsey (this seems to be in conflict with him being told by the headmaster at Battersea that he would not be allowed to be alone with boys outside the school). He says that after the cricket game, he met up with Graham and took him for a drink in his car. They went to a pub and Graham told him that he had left school with no qualifications and that he was now working in a hospital [St Peter's in Chertsey] as a porter.
Madley told me that when he was teaching Graham, he was a very good student, grade A's in most subjects except maths. He said he could not understand why Graham had failed his exams. In hindsight, having talked about it, he said that had he known at the time that what he was doing to Graham would have affected him so badly, he would not have done it. He says he is full of remorse and wants to be forgiven. He also says that he would like to help in any way if possible. He wants to meet with Graham to tell him in person how sorry he is.
He said that he was aware that Graham was not supposed to say anything about what had happened. I explained that Graham had signed a gagging order when the Salesians had given him a certain amount of money. I wasn't specific in the amount of money. He said he knew about the gagging order and the restrictions it placed on Graham. He said he knew about it from talking with his solicitor.
We had a short break at this point.
I phoned him again in about 15 minutes. He repeated the story to me in summary form in this second phone call and asked again that he wanted to meet Graham so he could say sorry to him. I told him that I would tell Graham what he had said and said I would call him again in a few days. We said goodbye.
This is a true record of the conversation as I recall it.
....................................................................................
David Irfon Williams
June 5th, 2004.
Transcript of the telephone phone conversation on 5 May 2004 between Hubert Cecil Madley (HM) and David Williams (DW) using the name Stephen.
HM: Hello?
DW: Hello, Mr Madley?
HM: Stephen?
DW: Yes it is. How are you doing Hugh? Don't mind if I call you Hugh?
HM: No.
DW: Right, as you know, obviously, I had a long talk with Graham over the weekend, on several occasions. There have been a few tears, but some of joy I must tell you. He has actually written a response to it. There are only five little notes, and then I'd like your response to it, it helps me with him you see.
HM: Did it help do you think?
DW: It helped him, yes. The realisation the he is not alone, he is not the liar, you know it has settled him down; it has given him new sight. He has perked up over the weekend tremendously.
HM: I'm so pleased. I never intended to hurt anyone in my life.
DW: Yeah.
HM: I had no idea what the implications were of that.
DW: I think it's best if I read you the notes. There's only six little things on it, and then maybe you might have a response to it. As I say, these all help me ..guidelines to me. I can talk to him better. I know I have talked over the weekend with him, at length. We've had a couple of beers I must admit over the weekend..it's all helped us. There has been some hugs and some tears. Anyway, basically there are six little items. If I just go through the six, you can give a response..you don't have to..by all means, but, as I say, it helps me so I can sit down and talk with him.
DW: This is Graham's response....obviously..the questions he wants to put to you, Hugh Madley.
Question One: Graham has asked me to tell you that your admission on Friday [30 April 2004] that you did have a sexual relationship with him at Chertsey School in 1968 has made a significant difference in the way he feels, and he wants you to know that he is grateful for the courage you have shown in your admission to him, OK?
HM: I wish I had realised the implications before.
DW: Yeah.
HM: I wouldn't have wanted to put him through anything.
DW: Yeah. That is why I should emphasise that he is very, very grateful to you for your courage, and obviously the courage you are showing now.
DW: OK - Two: Graham wants you to know that while the sexual abuse caused him significant, terrible psychological problems for much of his later life, that the thing that has caused him just as much damage was the way the Salesians actually betrayed him when he went to them for help in 1968.
HM: I wasn't quite aware what had happened..I...
DW: As I said, can I just run through these first, and then obviously we will chat away..If you need a break, or you want to go and have a fag..
HM: Could I just pop to the loo?
DW: Of course, you just pop off to the loo..no problem.
(Four minute pause ..tape still running)
HM: Hello Stephen?
DW: Hi, you alright now?
HM: Yeah, a bit more comfortable!
DW: I think I was up to item two
HM: The Salesians
DW: Yes, about the Salesians, basically about the way they betrayed him.
HM: I wasn't quite sure what you mean by that. Do you think they didn't believe him?
DW: Well I don't know, as I said these are just questions we have mulled over over the weekend that Graham wants me to put to you.
DW: Item three: Fr O'Shea and the other higher up in the Salesian Order swore him to silence when he told them what happened back in 1968.
HM: I didn't know about that. I probably guessed but I didn't know.
DW: And Fr O'Shea subsequently refused him to [be] allowed back to re-sit his GCE O levels after he failed them all in July of 1968.
DW: Item Four: Graham says that he failed his exams because of the traumatic mental decline he was undergoing between 1967/68 due to what you were doing to him. He says that he kept a brave face when he was with you because he did not know how else to deal with it and what was happening to him.
HM: I wish I'd have known.
DW: He says that this is what he thinks you mistook as a friendship. He wants you to know that because of the abuse, it destroyed his education...
HM: Yes.
DW: And much more, obviously, in his later life it's destroyed that as well. This is the part I think I should really emphasise to you. He is prepared to forgive you for that if you help him resolve the case with the Salesians. I think now he is thinking it's the Salesians, it's the cover up...I don't know..I don't know what he's thinking. But as I say, he is prepared to forgive you for what you've done to him if you could help him resolve the case with the Salesians.
HM: I thought that had been resolved?
DW: Well, I don't know, obviously these are points that Graham really wants me to put to you to see what comes out of them OK?
DW: Number five: He wants to know from you exactly who knew what happened, how you told them, and what you said and did afterwards, especially the involvement of Father O'Shea and the Rector Principal was it, you told me?
HM: The Rector of Chertsey [Father Harris - now deceased], Father Gaffney.
DW: Was he the one who helped you get the job in Battersea?
HM: No that was, that was, you see Father Gaffney died some little while afterwards. I can't remember exactly how long. But at his funeral I met, I went to see Father George Williams, he was the Rector Principal, or I think he's called the Provincial.
DW: OK, that's five, and this is the last one, basically. Graham says that this is the best way that you can help him now we all know that obviously the past cannot be changed, but you can help him make the future less difficult for both himself and yourself by explaining in more detail, obviously so I can counsel Graham through it, and about what you said on Friday, OK?
HM: Yes.
DW: That is the six little posers Graham came up with at the weekend, and he wanted me to put [them] to you. So, do you want to run through them one by one, or do you just want to ...?
HM: What was the first one?
DW: OK, we'll go right [back] to the beginning: Graham has asked me to tell you that your admission on Friday that you did have a sexual relationship with him at Chertsey in 1968 has made a significant difference to the way he feels, and he wants you to know that he is grateful for the courage you have shown by admitting what you have done.
HM: Will you thank him for that, very much.
DW: I will, I will thank him no doubt.
HM: It has eased things a lot for me.
DW: I will, no problem.
HM: I've hate..the idea since I realised back in December, January, that I'd done these things to him. I told you I was happier no knowing, but now I do know, I just couldn't let things go. I would have actually written to him before if I'd kept anything with his address on. I didn't want to go to a solicitor because I knew what he; well I guess what he'd probably say. He would probably say let sleeping dogs lie, or something like that. You're not about to incriminate yourself or anything like that, but I'm not really like that. When Graham wrote to me his letter on the first of April, I was able to write to him. Thank him for what he said, I very much appreciate that.
DW: I will do, no problem. So, shall we go on to number two?
HM: Yes.
DW: Graham wants you to know that while the sexual abuse caused him significant, terrible psychological problems, for much of his later life, the thing that has caused him just as much damage was the way the Salesians betrayed him when he went to them in 1968, which he does not hold you responsible for. OK, now I emphasise, he doesn't hold you responsible for that.
HM: I knew nothing about it until I read the thing I told you about in December.
DW: That was the e-mail in December wasn't it?
HM: Yes, yes, er, that was the thing that was on the Internet.
DW: Yes, on the Internet, that's right.
HM: But, er, I would like to say to Graham, had I known that he was having problems, I would have done what I could to help, at least with his education. I have always been prepared to give up my time for children, for anyone. That's the way I am. Believe it or not, I had actually hoped to help Graham when I first met him. I never thought anything was going to happen. When I met him again in 69, I just didn't pick anything up that there was anything wrong. It never occurred to me to say why didn't you carry on at Batter, at Chertsey? He told me he was working in the hospital then [St. Peters, Chertsey]. I had no idea what he said, no I can't remember.
DW: He was doing some portering at the hospital.
HM: Portering, yes I had a feeling it was that. We did talk about going down to Wales again, but I told you the reason why I didn't..
DW: Yes, of course, you did.
HM: Then, really, when my father became so ill, I just couldn't do anything at all.
DW: So, basically, you don't know anything about what the Salesians said or did?
HM: They never spoke to me. The only people I spoke to were Father Gaffney, Father Williams. Father O'Shea never said a word to me.
DW: OK, no problems. Three: Father O'Shea and the others, higher up in the Salesian Order, actually swore him to silence when he told them what was happening back in 1968.
HM: Does he know who else he spoke to, or remember who else he spoke to?
DW: Well I actually haven't covered that with him. As I say, this is Graham's response to me and...
HM: What I was thinking is that I've got some old school photographs from Battersea; I could send them to you.
DW: Yes, fine, that would be fantastic.
HM: He might sort of spot someone there. I've got them up to about the mid 80's I think. I haven't got any after that. I appreciate quite a few of them might have died.
DW: Well that would be absolutely fantastic. I know the visual aids like that do actually help, so if you could send them up with names on, who's who and what's what, I can actually pose the questions to Graham then.
HM: I couldn't guarantee I know who's who, they were around in the House, they were nothing to do with the actual teaching at school. Some I wouldn't know, some I would. Did he ever mention Father Foley?
DW: Father Foley?
HM: Does that ring a bell? He was the headmaster at Battersea when I went there.
DW: Oh, he was the headmaster at Battersea?
HM: Yes. He seemed to know about it.
DW: Graham doesn't really know anything about Battersea. He obviously has only been in touch with the Salesians at Battersea but it's just a brick wall basically.
DW: OK, were was I? Four: Graham says that he failed his exams because of the traumatic mental decline he underwent during 1967/8 due to what you were doing to him. He says he kept a brave face when he was with you because he did not know how else to deal with what was happening to him. He says that that is what he thinks you mistook as a friendship. He wants you to know that abuse destroyed his education and much else in his life at the time. But he is prepared to forgive you....
HM: Thank you.
DW: ...for what you did to him, and obviously if you will help him resolve the case with the Salesians.OK?
HM: Yes.
DW: Do you understand that?
HM: Yes. Again I would like to say I wish he had told me his feelings. I can feel what other people feel, if you know what I mean. I would have done what I could to help him. I am horrified to know what I've done to his education. I don't think I am a ghastly, horrible person. I know what I did was terribly wrong. I would have done anything then or now to try and help resolve that. I just wish I'd have known then and more recently. I'm sorry (emotional sounds).
DW: Just take your time. I can hear that you are getting upset. Take your time, have a few moments.
HM: I'll light a cigarette I think.
DW: Go on then.
HM: I never used to smoke until 96 after my father..my grandmother died and my mother got (??), one second please..(pause) I used to hate the smell of smoke....
DW: Any how, how is your garden getting on?
(There follows some meaningless chat about wet gardens, rhubarb, broad beans, Anderson shelters full of water, old people he visits and an old (Salesian) boy he is trying to help who is in trouble over an armed robbery).
DW: Shall we go on to number five? He wants to know from you who exactly knew what, and what happened, how you told them and what you said to them and what they did afterwards, what you did afterwards, and especially the involvement of Father O'Shea and the Rector (Provincial) who helped you get the job at Battersea.
HM: Yes, yes. Well, the only two people I spoke to directly were Father Gaffney the Rector, that was the same night that Graham told me that they knew about it. I'd left him thinking I was going to...I told him I was going to deny it and they wouldn't believe him, but I just couldn't go ahead with it, so ..because basically I am not a liar, I never liked liars and I did not want to be one myself. So, a lot went through my mind before I went back.
DW: One thing that did crop up, Graham didn't know that you had actually resigned.
HM: Oh yes, didn't ...I started to tell him the following day, but we got interrupted by someone coming down the stairs.
DW: No, Graham didn't know anything about this that you'd actually resigned.
HM: I resigned that same night.
DW: Oh! That same night?
HM: OK. We were saying who knew and what, how it happened, how did you tell them, what did you say to them, especially afterwards the involvement of Father O'Shea and the Rector (Provincial) who helped you get the job.
HM: I didn't speak to Father O'Shea. He didn't speak to me on the matter.
DW: Right.
HM: Well obviously he must have known that I'd spoken to Father Gaffney, he couldn't have otherwise known. Father Gaffney said he would see Father O'Shea when he got back. He said he would tell him about my resignation. So, does Graham know when he actually spoke to me, when he told me? Has he any knowledge of the date?
DW: I have got some dates down here, but obviously I'll check with Graham...
HM: Because it might show up if they have got a record of my resignation and it should correspond within a day or two, but I don't know weather they keep that sort of information. I suppose they would.
DW: I don't know, they may do, they may not.
HM: The only other person I spoke to directly on the matter was Father George Williams. He was the Provincial I call him, or Rector Major I think ...I don't know the proper title is. And I spoke to him after Father Gaffney's funeral. He was there and I went to him and I apologised for what I had done to Graham, and he obviously must have spoken to Father Gaffney because he knew what I'd said to him about that I wouldn't offend again, it was a one-off thing. And I think I told you he went quiet for a while, and he asked me what I was doing next year? I think I told him I'd applied for a couple of posts, but I hadn't got them. One was at my old school, but it was a physics post, physics wasn't my best...wasn't my principal subject. And then he said he knew that there would be a place available at Battersea teaching Chemistry, because Father Purler(?) was going to become the parish priest. Now I had no idea if there was any connection with what I'd done. or weather it had just happened to crop up. I have wondered about that since January. Father Foley did obviously know about it because he said to me in the first week of term...
DW: Father Foley was the headmaster at Battersea?
HM: Yes,
DW: So he knew all about it because he, as you told me on Friday, he was the one who was going to going to be 'watching you closely' (laughter). Not only were you a [naughty] schoolteacher, you were a naughty schoolboy as well, being watched!
HM: The deputy head was Father Blackburn who later, quite a long time later became the headmaster. He was also a chemistry teacher and he worked in the next lab to me, and he was always popping in and out, so it's possible that he might have known as well. There is one other person I've just thought of who might possibly have known. Again, I don't know weather he is alive now, and that's Father Golding. I don't know weather I mentioned him to you?
DW: Yes you did. You mentioned Father Williams and Father Golding on Friday.
HM: He was head of science, so he was sort of my line manager, and he was also a deputy head. Now I saw him in 98 or 99 after my mother died I think it was.
DW: Can I call you back in a couple of minutes...my other phone line is bleeping at me and I am expecting a call?
HM: Yes
DW: I'll phone you back in about 10 or 15 minutes if that's OK with you?
HM: YES.
BREAK.
HM: Hello!
DW: Hello Hugh. Believe it or not, that was actually Graham!
HM: Oh right.
DW: Yes one of the things he actually wants to thank you for is the knowledge that he is not a liar any more because what he was saying to me was that when the subject was broached by various people, his family, his friends, some of the other fathers and everything, they were saying no, no, that didn't happen, you are a liar...
HM: You know this is what I thought was upsetting him, you know when I said I was misleading him, you see unfortunately I didn't keep the Internet stuff, so I couldn't recheck it. When I first read it..
DW: Well I'm sure...I've actually got them, I could always resend them to you, the e-mails and stuff for you. That wouldn't be a problem. Do you have an Internet address?
HM: I've been offline since December.
DW: Well, I'll print them off and send them down to you. As I said - he really does thank you for releasing him, because all his life - and he's 52 now, he's been saying I'm not a liar, I'm not a liar. And every one else has been saying 'yes you are you - this didn't happen, this didn't happen'.
HM: Who told him he was a liar?
DW: Various people, his father, some friends...
HM: Oh No.
DW: Some fathers in Chertsey, they were saying oh no, hang on...you are making this up...you are just a naughty boy basically, that's why you failed your exams. Especially his father. His father was very disappointed obviously with the exam results because' from what I led to believe, talking to him and to a couple of other people who knew him, he was going to go on to University and everything. That's what he wanted basically.
HM: Because I think he wanted to be a doctor.
DW: Yes that's right, he was all up for going through all that, and ended up a hospital porter.
HM: Honestly, had I'd known what he been going through at the time..I wish he had told me. I didn't know the connection with Martin's death and Graham telling them. I would have realised he was going through a bad time. I knew Martin was his best friend.
DW: Yes, he had great difficulty going to the funeral. Anyway, shall we go on to six? Graham says the best way you can help him now is, you can't change the past, but we can go forward. The best way basically was for you to tell us everything you know - explain in more detail.
HM: I don't think there is much more detail I can give really, as I say, I spoke to Father Gaffney and told him everything that I told you. I haven't remembered anything more since we spoke. And then he died fairly soon afterwards. I have no idea how long after - a few weeks or a month or two. I have a feeling Graham told me after Christmas, would that match up with any of the dates?
DW: I've got the case file in front of me. I'm just scanning the dates.
HM: Would Graham be prepared to meet me so I can apologise to him face to face?
DW: I doubt that very much, not at the present time. I would say no. But who knows in the future?
HM: You know, I don't feel a telephone apology or a written apology.....
DW: Well, anything you say to me I can pass on to Graham in the full. I won't hold anything back. One thing I've got to be with Graham is totally and utterly truthful you see. So anything you say, I've told him basically.
HM: I did want Graham as a friend. I'm just so sorry I let him down so badly. I hadn't planned it, whatever he thinks about that. I thought I was in control of my emotions; I just wasn't as strong as I thought I was.
DW: Graham says as a footnote, If Graham sued the Salesians, would you be his witness? That would not mean that you would have to face prosecution basically, he is saying here.
HM: Well I'd be bound to eventually.
DW: You would quite happily be a witness for us against the Salesians? That would be a fantastic help to Graham. As I say to you, he holds you responsible for what you have done but he feels absolutely betrayed by the Salesian Order itself.
HM: I must admit, I am terribly frightened by this. I presume the police could prosecute me anytime, couldn't they?
DW: Well I think that would be up to Graham. If Graham wants to put in a complaint, now that's entirely up to Graham. I don't know the way Graham's thinking at the moment, because it's all like afresh wound to him now. It's opened up, as I say, over the weekend we had a couple of sit-downs, I've stayed at Graham's. I've had a meal with him and his wife and kids and we chewed the fat, and it's come up and we've gone away and come back. As I say, we have had quite a few tears, but within those tears, there were tears of joy. So you know, you are helping him. So I can actually go back to Graham and say you would be a witness for him if he decided to sue the Salesians.
HM: From what I remember my solicitor saying that he had already received a settlement from the Salesians.
DW: That settlement from the Salesians was like a gagging order on him.
HM: A Gagging order?
DW: Yes, so he couldn't mention anything - the school or anything.
HM: I didn't know they could that sort of thing.
DW: Well yes, if you accept an offer, but now the truth is out. Because, basically, they were saying you are telling a lie, but we don't want you to tell the story. So they gave him a sum of money, but that's blown out of the water. It wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Well I presume. I not a lawyer, But now the truth's out, he is not a liar, maybe he is going to go for the Salesians and try and get some retribution against that. I don't know.
HM: It occurred to me to me at the time, you know, I can't actually speak for the Salesians, but it occurred to me that they thought that might be the best thing for everybody...
DW: Possibly..
HM: ...but who could have known what would happen to Graham in subsequent years...I don't know why they wouldn't let him back in. I don't understand that.
DW: Well they more than likely wanted to get rid of him - obviously, out of sight out of mind isn't it? I have read some of his reports, and he was a fantastic student, and from 67/68 he just declined.
HM: The only problem I found with Graham, at least with maths, I got to tell you about this, he was careless, but then so am I. I do remember now that he came out of the science exam or chemistry exam and said wasn't it easy, and my heart fell, because it was the most difficult papers I'd seen in chemistry. And I felt oh my God, no. Weather he was just saying that out of bravado, I don't know.
DW: I'll ask him next time we speak and give you an answer.
(More meaningless chat now follows about going up to Scotland to see friends and go gold panning)
HM: I was just trying to think if there was anyone else I spoke to about it. As far as I know, the only one who made a comment about it to me was Father Foley, but he died in 73. Maybe we could hold a séance. I am going to have a soak in the bath now.
(More chat about his holidays)
DW: OK, maybe I'll talk to you later in the week.
HM: Will you thank Graham for what he said, and can I also thank you for how you have handled this, it's really helped me. I was absolutely dreading talking to you to be honest.
DW: If I've been of any help to you, it means I've been a help to Graham.
HM: If Graham wants any help from me, hopefully we can have a meeting and apologise one day.
DW: We'll see. I'm not promising anything.
HM: Please tell him how dreadfully sorry I am, I couldn't control myself.
DW: OK, no problem. Don't get yourself all upset. Go and have that soak in the bath.
HM: I watch television in the bath so I have to be careful.
DW: Don't electrocute yourself! I'll speak to you soon.
HM: OK. Thank you very much.
ENDS
This transcript is a true copy of the telephone conversation I had with Hubert Madley on Wednesday 5th May 2004.
Signed..................................................................................................10 May 2004
TRANSCRIPT OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATION BETWEEN DAVID WILLIAMS AND HUBERT CECIL MADLEY RECORDED ON 1/11/04 AT 18:00. THIS CONVERSATION FOLLOWED A MEETING MADLEY HAD WITH HIS SOLICITORS WHICH TOOK PLACE AFTER HE HAD BEEN CHARGED BY SURREY POLICE.
HM Hello
DW Hi - how did you get on today?
HM....bit confused...I couldn't take in all she said. I asked her for the worst case scenario. She said well, they could send me to prison for quite a long time, and ignore totally any help I have given Graham, just to make an example of me.
DW That's the worst case scenario - what were the other scenarios?
HM Well it could go all the way - it depends whether they actually decide to charge me. She said she couldn't see how it was in the public interest to charge me after all this time. So, it could be anywhere in between.
DW Ah right...ah well...
HM There's a range of possibilities...(sighs) ahh dear
DW Well I can't see it being the worst case scenario.
HM Oh God I hope not.
DW Did she say any length of sentence or anything for the worst case scenario?
HM No...no...I didn't want to ask (starts to laugh nervously)...I was so shaken by it....
(short pause) how's Graham anyway?
DW He's fine...he's plodding along nicely.
HM He's up to date with what's going on is he?
DW He's up to date now....I've filled him in completely with what's happening and everything.
HM What does he think about things?
DW Well he's....he's...obviously thankful that he doesn't have to go to court or anything. ...
HM Yeah..
DW He thanks you personally for being truthful and saying 'yes, I'm going to admit it and say guilty' , so, just take it from there. He's on the edge of his seat waiting to see what happens...'cos you actually...when do you go back...Thursday?
HM - Ah yeah, they're not going to charge me then apparently...I had a phone call just before I left for the solicitors from a DC Hobbs...it's just to re-bail me, and it could be for about six weeks, while the CPS are deciding what to do with it....
DW Ah right
HM...whether they are going to prosecute me, which I assume they will do...I can't see anything else.
DW. Ah right...(short pause)..it's basically a case of wait and see then isn't it?
HM Yeah...I'm just shattered at the moment, I really am.
DW Hmmm
HM You hope for the best, but fear the worst.
DW Well yes...if you actually fear the worst, and if nothing else happens, you are better off aren't you?
HM She said she couldn't ...oh what did she say...what would be the point of putting me on the sex offenders register when it had basically been a one-off crime?
DW That's right...that's right.
HM But I suppose they automatically do that don't they?
DW No, it's not an automatic thing. The solicitor's quite right there...so. one-off crime and that's it. (long pause)
HM (mutters softly) Oh dear.....I think I'll probably get a bit drunk this evening..
DW (laughs)...don't blame you...a few glasses of that red wine. Any particular one you will be having tonight?
HM Er...well, accidentally, I bought... err...hmm, a Californian wine, rather than...I thought I was buying an Australian wine...I didn't read the thing...err...hang on...see what it is...erm...I tend to buy it by the three litre pack.
DW That's right
HM Oh, it's Echo Falls Merlot
DW Yeah...it's a nice one
HM It's equivalent of up to four bottles...I think that's been the trouble...one of the reasons why I had the stomach trouble...probably that and the Nurofen....so I'll just have to be a bit more careful.
DW Yeah..
HM Oh, did Graham think anymore about coming to see me at sometime?
DW Well, we haven't really discussed that. We'll wait obviously to see what happens on Thursday....
HM (interupts)....well ..it's now just going to be re-bailed. I'm just going to ring the DC to check it out, but that's what he told me this morning....there's no reason to believe...
DW Well if that's what he's telling you...that's just normal course..
HM I just envisage myself (nervous laughter) .. and them diving on me from all sides...
DW I don't think they would do that...No. Are you taking a solicitor down on Thursday with you?
HM No. There is no point.
DW No point - OK. Well look....that's some good news for you anyway.
HM Well - yes and no. It's the dragging out. Now I can understand how Graham must have felt.
DW Aha.. yeah...yeah....ah well...
HM The thing sort of dragging out so long.
DW Hmm..well maybe you should phone me Thursday evening and tell me how you got on. What time are you on Thursday?
HM Hello? Hello? (communication lost)
DW redials the number
DW Hello - can you hear me now?
HM Yes.
DW I could hear everything you were saying...
HM Oh!
DW So, I am totally confused here now...this John Hobbs - he phoned you this morning...what did he say?
HM He just said that I would be re-bailed while the CPS make up their mind whatto do.
DW Arhh - right.
HM So. .I...I'm just saying ...err...with the delay.. .I know how Graham must have been feeling all this time.
DW yeah....
HM (sighs) I wish I had put him in the picture all those years ago (gets emotional)...if I had spoken to him....see, Fr Gaffney did say to me not to...or have as little contact with him as possible...except in a professional capacity...
DW Yeah...
HM And I did ...sort of...take him at his word...
DW That's right...well you'd have to, literally wouldn't you?
HM Yeah...yeah. I've spent about two hours with the solicitor.
DW Yeah
HM It was freezing in the room..
DW Oh dear..
HM Normally those places are overheated..
DW Well usually they are aren't they?
HM Yeah...hrmm...do you know, I've forgotten almost everything I said...and what she said, but basically, I said...I tried to say exactly what I said to the police, what I said to you. Urm..she's taken a photo copy of the letters that Graham sent to me. There was actually only one of my letters I copied, and she said she won't get a copy of those until they charge me.
DW That's right....yeah..
HM And what ever else.......I don't know what happened, whether it was the Salesian's
lawyers sending a copy of my letter, I presume that's what happened....
DW I presume so...yeah.
HM Oh...I suppose I should have expected that...
DW Well...yeah...yeah
HM I suppose they would have had to wouldn't they?
DW Well....being solicitors, they are duty bound aren't they? If they know of a crime, and especially if someone says 'yes I am guilty of what's going on', they are actually duty bound ...so...oh well...I don't know really what to say here...apart from...time to open your red wine I think!
HM (nervous laugh)
DW Errm...what time do you reckon you'll be back on Thursday?
HM Oh..I've got to see them at about twelve-ish. The journey down wasn't too bad but it was a nightmare coming back. It seems worse sort of travelling clockwise on the M25 . He said I should'nt be down there more than ten - twenty minutes. So I should be back by two o'clock or thereabouts, but I'll probably go straight to my uncle's.
DW Yeah
HM I take the paper up to him every day, normally I take it up to ...I put the paper in before I go, but er, I like to leave myself plenty of time...I hate being late for anything. I've got a fear of being late. Mum was the same.
DW
Well, maybe if you give me a little call on Thursday afternoon and just tell me how you got on.
HM Yeah
DW Ok then
HM Thanks very much then.
DW Ok, no worries. Good bye then
HM Goodbye.
Conversation ends.